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Notes
Previous "Immigration: Legal and Illegal. What do our laws mean and how do we best sustain our society?" This topic usually brings heated discussion and rhetoric. We were able to examine several differing perspectives and opinions as a group and calmly and rationally consider the various angles and explore some alternatives. Compassion was evident throughout the discussion, but the realization that following the agreed upon laws of the land helps keep our society stable and sustainable compelled us to look at the emotional arguments in a new, long-term light. It is the apparent total disrespect for laws by both the employers and the laborers that destroys our society. The complicity of the consuming public to put up with the situation for the sake of cheap prices on certain goods while having to pay even more taxes on the back end to support the situation is the third somewhat hidden cost and is the true burden on society as a whole, despite its being beneficial to a few select individuals. This is a textbook example of where the seemingly cheapest price is not always the best thing for the society. The question is complex, and makes us look at the true costs of our seemingly never-ending demand for cheap labor and prices. Perhaps some things are worth paying a little more for. Perhaps paying the true cost of our decisions is the fairest thing to do of all. When we cheapen and devalue people and our laws, we cheapen and devalue the meaning of our society and our country. And we create a whole class of people with no rights at all, living outside the laws we depend upon for our stability and prosperity. This outside class is a destabilizing influence on our society, and it is not a fair way to treat the people who find themselves in it. We need to admit the truth and be willing to pay the true costs of our needs. Pay the extra quarter for your carrots. The current situation does not appear compassionate at all. It is ultimately destructive to all in the society. Creating an underclass of laborers with no rights sounds an awful lot like the slavery people like Abraham Lincoln fought so hard to abolish. Why are the new socialists trying to reinstate slavery again in modern America? Why not create ways for people to both work and abide by the agreed upon laws, and then require them and their employers to do so? Note: Topic #24-29: [To be posted] #28 Tuesday, February 7, 2006 #27 Thursday, January 8, 2006 #26 Thursday, December 8, 2005 #25 Thursday, November 10, 2005 #24 Thursday, October 13, 2005 Topic #23: "SPECIAL HURRICANE KATRINA DISCUSSION- Thurs, Sept. 8, 2005" Date: Thursday, September 8, 2005 The original synopsis is below. This was a really incredible and well-attended meeting, as the true nature and use of what I am doing by hosting these discussion groups could be seen. We all did not agree, but we discussed many relevant topics concerning the hurricane in a civilized manner and all learned something from each other. What do you think about the tragedy?...My heart goes out to those affected by Hurricane Katrina. At this time of trauma for the Gulf Coast region including New Orleans, Biloxi, Gulfport, Mobile and numerous small communities, we ask ourselves: "What are the philosophical implications of what happened with this unique storm (or is it really so unique--will other worse storms come that we might better prepare for now?) What is our true preparedness for these events? What are the causes of the quick social breakdowns witnessed? Where should we build, who really owns it, what are the TRUE costs and why? Who is really paying the price for this kind of development? Do people have the inalienable right to build where they cannot get adequate private insurance? Who wins and loses when the government subsidizes some people's decisions at the expense of others'? And who is better off in a crisis- those who seek to help make things better or those who seek to hurt, murder, rape, terrorize and impede rescue efforts? Please come share your thoughts and opinions, and be sure to tell your friends and all you know who are interested by email the info. on this very important discussion. Last month, on my music page, in explanation of a song I had written years ago predicting a Hurricane Katrina-like disaster, I also wrote the following...little did I know then that Hurricane Rita would prove my predictions true so soon... "There will be another hurricane someday worse than this one (maybe sooner than later). Will we be prepared and make smarter decisions? Will we Think and Learn from history? Or will we party like our pop-culture encourages us to, ignoring the inevitable, and together pay the horrible price again and again?"--C,P from this website music page posted early-Spetember 2005 after Hurricane Katrina, before Rita. I hope that we can start to learn from what is not working in our country and start moving towards what can work better. Get involved, talk to other people about important things, and don't be afraid to disagree in a civilized way. Discussing together about important things , especially if you think people might not always agree with you, is not only a key to helping get our society moving forward in a better direction, it is the fundamental value that our founding fathers started America for. Topic #22: "Where do we draw the Lines of Responsibility?" Date: Wednesday, August 10, 2005  Topic #21: "How can we THINK more and what should we be thinking about?" Date: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 Topic #20: "What are the new Health Savings Accounts, who are they for and how can they help us to be more free?" Date: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 Link to info: www.hsadecisions.org Summary: Since we had two discussions this month, the topic of the Health Savings Account and a new approach to American Health Care was the one that held the conversation. We spent a lot of time discussing why people do not have health care in this country and the philosophical principles and underpinnings of various approaches to the problem. Although the new Health Savings Accounts are at first somewhat difficult to explain and grasp, by the end, most of us had a pretty good understanding of why they might prove to be the better alternative to the health care question than either employer-based or government-based programs (or nothing at all- as some of us were among the uninsured business owners of America who fall outside the current system.) All were encouraged to do their own research and look up and compare the information from a variety of sources to see if this is something that could help them. Also, we heard from a man who came to the US from Cuba as a refugee years ago and now makes a living in a free society. We discussed his reasons for leaving that country long ago and got his perspective on what freedom is to him and how he feels about being in America rather than Cuba after all these years! Topic #19: "What is STRESS? How does it relate to our lives and how do we deal with it in ourselves and how we relate to others?" Date: Wednesday, June 8, 2005 Summary: The weather was great to sit outside, and we had a most excellent time discussing with several new additions to our group! We voted on discussing the topic of Stress, what that means to each of us, how it affects us individually and in dealing with groups of others. We examined the phenomena of stress as it has been introduced to our modern society, made reference to the fact that it is an engineering term, and discussed what that means in the context of our conversation. Our international participants really gave us some good perspective on this one, reminding us that stress as we seem to perceive it here is not a shared idea in other cultures, so they use our English word for it instead of having one of their own. I asked if there was ever such a thing as good stress. Yes, hte desire to eat from the stress of being hungry, as well as other hungers we have that prompt us to action. We mentioned that some folks are stressed by things others find to be enjoyable or even motivational challenges. We examined the variety of people's reactions to stress and how they deal with it. We ended moving inside for the last half-hour since it was sprinkling rain, but no one was getting stressed about it!! I brought up the idea that the group itself is a positive stress in that by encouraging thinking about things everyday people normally don't, we create more of a community with our interaction and our willingness to try to listen and learn form others who are not necessarily like ourselves. This is a good stress, as we can learn tolerance and perspective through conversation, which makes things less stressful. I am happy to report we ended all commenting on how much better we feel for sharing our ideas together for this few hours. We'd like to invite more folks to come by and give us a try- no matter who you are or what you think, as long as you are respectful you do have something valuable to contribute- come on down! Learn, listen, share, laugh, think, and be less stressed! I've omitted some summaries as I've misplaced the notes Topic #14: "What is INTEGRITY?" and "What is OWNERSHIP?" Date: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 Summary: The voted on topics provided a rich and incisive discussion. Some thoughts and snippets from the discussion: Integrity has to do with how we choose to live our lives....Where do we draw the lines....Can a cat have integrity, or is it just a human quality?...What about duty to other people?...Nature vs. nurture behavior as far as integrity being taught...We know it when we see it, but what is the 'right thing' to do?...involves responsibility...many of the many do not even want improvement, or think it comes at too high a cost...integrity in terms of economics; how does it relate to ownership?...is there honor that is a higher value than just money?...Are there times when artistic integrity should take precedence?...what about loyalty and integrity of ideas?...As leaders, do we Americans want alpha personalities that have never taken a risk? Is this possible, or an unrealistic expectation?...who on this earth doesn't have a skeleton in their closet, and does everyone always have to be dragged through the mud?...is there not integrity in preserving a bit of decency and respect for a fellow human being?...who are/should we each live for?...does our DNA when we are born determine our morality?...does it always seem that there is less integrity today than in the past, or is this just a recent feeling?...choice, free will, honor, fairness...we left plenty of ideas on the table for next month's discussion! Come and join in! Topic #13: "What is 'thinking outside the box'?" and "What is TRUTH?" Date: Wednesday, December 8, 2004 Summary: Once again, a combination of some old and some new participants as the suggested topics above were delved into. We asked what is the box, and spent a bit of discussion trying to define what that might mean to each of us. Routine and conditioned and impulsive responses were discussed, both in work and in life and how those affect us. Our perceptions and the idea of judgment and was that always necessarily good or bad. When are we really thinking outside the box or are we each just thinking we are thinking outside the box? Are there times where it is okay to think within a box, and what are the boxes we each think in? Does creativity mean doing what has never been done before, or are there nuances in repetition or selectively using previous parts (a discussion of music, sampling and repeating old melodies with new lyrics was explored for a bit). War in general and particular wars were brought up. We asked was it just to try to kill Hitler, and was that not exerting judgement, as a way of showing that there are times that judging can be good, when we try to prevent certain wrongs from being perpetrated by others, and for some the idea of just letting things happen without involvement vs. standing up to oppression and not allowing killing was brought up. We found some difficulty in trying to decide how best to live and let live when there are those who would want to kill you for that very attitude which allows them to be different. Perhaps these ideas will recur in a later discussion. Truth was said to be eternal, but we spent much time discussing how we arrived at our individual truths and where we get those ideas from. One participant brought up the idea of seeing a shadow of an image vs. being able to see the actual cause and light source of the shadow image we see revealed as a way of trying to understand things which seem both clear and unclear at the same time. We discussed love, then decided to better use the term bliss, since people have different ideas of what was a truly loving action. Power and control, good vs. evil. We ended having touched on a variety of nuances that will hopefully provide some good topics to be suggested for next month. Just wish they could make that milk frothier a bit quieter in there! See you next month- bring a friend. Thanks for coming to participate! Topic #12: "What are VALUES?" Date: Wednesday, November 13, 2004 Summary: We welcomed a few newcomers to our group meeting at Starbuck's, as we shared our ideas on what this question meant to each of us, in light of the focus on values stemming from the recent results of the national elections. Many insights were shared, and it does seem that each of our value sets and beliefs is brought up in some light in most of the discussions. Come on out to the next meeting and share your ideas and /or values! Topic #11: "What make LIFE GOOD?" Date: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 Summary: A lively discussion between our group meeting at Starbuck's with input from everyone from a computer-engineer for a financial services firm to a pre-med college student and a graphic designer. Some interesting commonalities and differences were discussed and shared. Topic outline below: IS there a formula for what makes life good? Can we identify any commonalities? How much depends on background and experiences? How much depends on freedom or government control? How much depends on location and status? Can people who differ find ways to agree or is that an unrealistic goal? Who decides, and what type of influence should they have over others' lives? In light of the upcoming election, we find our country polarized, at least according to the media. Is there any room for enlightened discussion of differences? Is it not responsible of those who value a democratic society to try to listen to and understand the opposing point of view? Does everything have to be portrayed as bad for some just because a differing side happens be in power? Is there not some good being done? IS there a formula for what makes life good? Can we identify any commonalities? How much depends on background and experiences? How much depends on freedom or government control? How much depends on location and status? Can people who differ find ways to agree or is that an unrealistic goal? Who decides, and what type of influence should they have over others' lives? What good does it do to only speak to people who already agree with you? Can we not learn more by engaging in constructive discussion with a variety of perspectives, or would we rather just keep mudslinging? Come and bring your perspective and your respect for others. . |
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 Topic #10: "Where are we HEADED? Should we stay (the course) or should we go (and will things be worse if that happens?)" Date: Wednesday, September 8, 2004 Summary: A smaller gathering for our first session at the coffee shop (we didn't have the sign today- so if you came by and missed us- we WERE there, although we started a bit later!) The conversation focused on three themes: the political environment, technology, and education. We spoke about some of the technological advances in our society and how they are affecting us generationally. What are the implications of people who grow up used to things like GPS and surveillance in the name of protection. Is there a better way to achieve these goals rather than the ever increasing use of technologies and security systems? We had a bit of discussion from one of the participants from a Libertarian point of view. Education, and the need to value it as a way of overcoming poor economic status and/or downsizings or layoffs was emphasized. Concern over the lack of value of or belief in education by some segments of society was expressed. Also touched on religion and how it related to the topic and technology. These discussions are open to all, so the conversation will differ depending on who shows up and what their particular point of view is. There's really no preformed agenda other than a willingness to participate in respectful conversation. It was brought up that these sessions are more enriching when there are people with differing points of view who are willing to speak up. There is more opportunity to learn. Original outline: This fall will see the culmination of a lot of rhetoric in this country. Discussion of ISSUES, rather than personal attacks, is the only way we can hope to find solutions, through building consensus after examining a variety of viewpoints. Many people have good ideas, but their voice gets lost in the rhetoric from those who attack only to change who's in power, rather than focusing on the problems in their positions that might be preventing them from being successful. What good does it do to only speak to people who already agree with you? Can we not learn more by engaging in constructive discussion with a variety of perspectives, or would we rather just keep mudslinging? Come and bring your perspective and your respect for others who may differ to see what we can learn by listening to each other. The answers might surprise you! Topic #9: "What is the FUTURE?" Date: Wednesday, August 23, 2004 Summary: Say what you will, everyone has an opinion on what their future is and what our collective future might be. We had perspective from both a younger angle, where the future was more of possibilities, to a very insightful bit of input from a businessman whose ideas of his future had been shifted as he lived his life and confronted some unexpected circumstances. The opportunity to discuss and enlighten ourselves with each other's perspective was truly demonstrated most excellently in our discussion this evening. Topic #8: "Who wants some MONEY?" Date: Wednesday, July 28, 2004 Summary: As usual, the discussion started one place and ended up in another. But we discussed the role of money in our culture, why it is both good and bad. Who wants money and why. Why working for things can be a good thing, and why being controlled only by money, with no outside values can lead to destruction in many ways. Outline was as follows: Part two of a two-part inquiry: Just because we can do something, and it makes more money than not doing it, should we? Is it not really a Conservative idea to want something other than money to drive our decisions? Why is that view seen as liberal? Where did the wires get crossed, and who's controlling them? Who are the real Conservatives and Liberals in our society? The answers might surprise you! Topic #7: "What do we VALUE?" Date: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 Summary: We had a lively discussion from a variety of perspectives. Different people value things differently, some not at all. How we interact with our different value systems determines if our interactions are peaceful and productive, or belligerent and destructive. There are times that conflict cannot be avoided, but the desire to find other ways to solve problems was generally held as a positive value. Outline was as follows: Part one of a two-part inquiry: Just because we can do something, and it makes more money than not doing it, should we? Is it not really a Conservative idea to want something other than money to drive our decisions? Why is that view seen as liberal? Where did the wires get crossed, and who's controlling them? Who are the real Conservatives and Liberals in our society? The answers might surprise you! Topic #6: "Who owns SEX?" Date: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 Summary: Outline below. Sex is everywhere in our culture. What's YOUR opinion on this and who really owns sex today? Is there anything you'd like to see handled differently? If so, how? Or would you like even more sex? What lessons can be learned from how we view and use sex in our culture today? Topic #5: "What would YOU do about IRAQ?" Date: Tuesday, June 8, 2004 Summary: Outline below. There are many different opinions of what is going on in IRAQ. What do YOU think is Right and wrong about the situation and what would YOU suggest? How does the situation in Iraq affect you and your outlook on the world today? What are the possibilities for the future? What can be learned? Topic #4: "What is FAIR?" Date: Wednesday, May 26, 2004 Summary: Outline below. From a very young age, most of us can remember having uttered the words: "No fair!" at one time or another in our lives. People's perceptions of fairness are influenced by many things, from background to religious and moral beliefs, or the lack thereof, to social class, education and more. Are there commonalities of what fairness basically entails? Or is fairness always subjective? How does our perception of fairness influence our decisions, how we interact with each other and the resultant societal shifts we create in a macro sense from micro decisions based upon what we think is fair? Should we strive for greater fairness in our society or is that folly? And how fair do things have to be before we lose our identity and individuality or does this matter? Topic #2 and #3: "What makes a Great City?" Date: Tuesday & Wednesday, May 11-12, 2004 Summary: Our first session at the jazz club, where our discussion seemed to center on transportation issues and the current crisis with MARTA. Several comments were made about how Atlanta still has a long way to go to catch up to other "great" cities as far as transportation and mobility. It was suggested that a good pressure washing and/or steam cleaning of all the MARTA stations from top to bottom might be one idea of a low-cost, big improvement that could be made immediately. Interest was raised in revisiting this topic again at a future discussion. Afterwards we settled in to enjoy a great jazz jam session. Food and drink were available for purchase during and after the discussion. An extra special session was also held the next evening at the bookstore in Buckhead. A much larger group turned out for this discussion and stayed to talk together for quite a while. Ranging in age from high school students to those wizened by years of experiences, the conversation began by discussing how different people define what a great city is differently, based upon their perspective. A summary of some of the ideas expressed in the discussion: Older, Eastern US cities were mentioned, again with references to transportation availability. The 24-hour character of New York was cited by some. Cities in Europe were touched upon. The need for business to grow and thrive was cited, as well as the desire for reasonableness in managing growth. The need for people to do things for themselves and not always with government assistance was mentioned. Comparisons of America's opportunities as compared to other nations received a mention. Race relations were discussed in several different angles, from why some kids don't sit with others at high school lunches, even when asked to by their administration, to differences in cultural ideas. One gentlemen expressed concern that with a significant percentage of a minority in prison for felony charges, some have lost their right to vote forever (is this true?), not just while in prison. It was realized that a significant part of the population have thus been neutered by our society and rendered somewhat frustrated and relatively limited in power, with limited outlet for contribution to society after their debt has been paid. The long-term ramifications were hinted at, as well as how this filters down into affecting day-to-day life of people living together in cities. Responsibility for actions was touched on, as well as concern for the macro effect of this disenfranchising as it affects people's decisions and city life as far as issues of propensity to crime and anger at being locked out of opportunity. Love was a theme brought up, and how it affects our views and where it comes from. Religious beliefs came through as being significant in shaping people's perspectives and actions in how they interact. Most of the group was refreshingly open and willing to express and discuss their religious affiliations openly, the majority of which happened to be Christian in nature at this gathering. One recounted how his Christianity had helped him get through his experiences in prison. How moral values, affirmed through practicing a peaceful faith can positively affect people's experiences living together in society was touched on as well. Finally, the absence of faith by some was recognized and expressed, as well as the fact that there are some in the world who have beliefs that are neither peaceful or positive, and how this negativity can lead to destruction instead of working together. One person mentioned that a religion advocating violence as a method was not a true religion, but a distortion of divine values by imperfect humans. Overall, an interesting and lively interaction of ideas. In the end, openness in expressing and living a peaceful faith seemed to carry the majority opinion over secretiveness and disruption. Again, interest was expressed in further exploration of the main topic in a future discussion. Topic #1: "What is FREEDOM?" Date: Wednesday, April 28, 2004 Summary: A small group, but a unique and lively discussion touching on many aspects and perspectives of what freedom is. We ended up staying until closing and had a very enjoyable time meeting new people and listening to each other's views. We began to see that freedom depends. It depends on who you are, your background, your location, your connections to others, your willingness to grow and change, and your perception of factors that may be seen as either limitations or opportunities. A few fragments from what was said: We discussed Decision Science; open format where individuals work together vs. divisive format where individuals are pitted against each other..."Most [many] people are apathetic, yet apathy is a choice by default."..."The power of inertia is the most powerful force in the world."..."Many people are resistant to change." [But are all? and what is the price of change in terms of freedom?]...Freedom is perception?...Privacy is just a part of freedom....Things one individual may consider as promoting freedom are often seen as limiting freedom by others....One's faith upbringing or absence thereof influences one's perspective on what freedom means and how one exercises freedom in the context of a society. ©2003-2006 Christopher,Philosopher; PG, Inc. All rights reserved |